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[–]Lord_ReyanThe Lonely 177 points178 points  (0 children)

The phrase that always sticks with me is "a philosophical dissection of Fear"

[–]Aridross 149 points150 points  (6 children)

It’s been a bit since I’ve listened to the Q&A episodes, but Jonny and Alex do talk a bit about theme in those episodes. I would say (especially based on what I remember of their statements) is that the theme of TMA is “personal complicity in systems of oppression”, especially in the context of our poor Archivist.

It’s not literally about capitalism, but there are parallels by design. TMA is about being part of a horrible system that chews up human lives to keep itself going. It’s about how surviving within that system can require you to passively permit the system to continue, and thriving in it requires you to actively participate in the cruelty, becoming an oppressor.

Jon’s entire character arc is about the guilt of participating in the Fears’ system of oppression, how it erodes his humanity and his sense of morality, and how understanding that sort of system, understanding its scale and its intricacies, can alienate him from a normal human life.

[–]winterwarn 42 points43 points  (0 children)

I definitely think this is on the nose for theme; loss of humanity from participating in a bad system for your own survival, even though you technically have “free will” to break out (Melanie). Also, I suppose, it’s not a coincidence that the final orchestrator of the series was the Web, the entity that feeds on those trapped in cycles and addiction.

[–]SilverwolverineXMr. Spider 30 points31 points  (0 children)

I second this, and would add that there are some bits that are explicitly about capitalism. How a lot of the avatars, specifically Simon Fairchild, Jonah Magnus, The Lukas family, the Church of Darkness (forgot what they were called), even others involved such as Smirk, Dekker, Salesa, and Leitner were only able to do everything they did because they all had access to great deals of money and didn’t care how their actions affected others, regardless of their intentions.

[–]in-the-widening-gyreThe Stranger 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yeah this is my read and how I was thinking about it while s5 was coming out.

And that's why choice and the lack thereof are also such prominent themes in the show.

(Interestingly I really like how Jon deconstructs the dichotomy of monster and human because in a lot of ways he becomes more empathetic and more committed to trying to do something the more enmeshed he gets).

One thing I really disliked about the ending was that IMO, ambiguous endings are best at emphasizing irreconcilable thematic problems (like being complicit in but trying to work against it still and is that a thing) and they work when they leave the audience to ponder those things. I really didn't like that we got the bit at the very end with Basira where they all speculate about what happened to Jon and Martin because if it mattered, Jonny would have included it, and thinking about that is a distraction from pondering the themes.

155 Cost of Living is a nice single-episode encapsulation of some of these themes, IMO

[–]Vegetable_Insect_966 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep. That’s it. Holy shit.

[–]PermissionFamiliar64Mr. Spider 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree on this. If you read Jonny's book Thirteen Storeys you can see the parallels of systems of oppression!

[–]something_cartoonidhThe Eye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

which i love and think is super interesting because compared to the way daisy resists the hunt and the way melanie leaves the eye, jon does an objectively bad job at not being complicit. i know jonny and alex have talked about not wanting it to be pseudo-addictive and wanting to be careful with the angle, but jon definitely indulges in the eye, possibly more than he needs to to survive? i love dissecting jon’s flaws

[–]BatsNStufLibrarian 34 points35 points  (1 child)

I don’t know what it’s about exactly, but I do know that it has a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License

[–]UrbenmythNot!Them 33 points34 points  (1 child)

More seriously then my other answer: how do you deal with an unethical system that you can't escape from?

Jon is a man with privilege and power he doesn't ask for - doesn't even want - but which benefits him in ways that hurt others, often severely. He's part of a system that destroys others, but he can't escape it. So what does he do?

Put here, the metaphor becomes clear. Tim would rather destroy himself then partake in the system and, in the end, that's the only way he can avoid it. Melanie is nearly swayed by possibilities of rising up the system, and has to claw out her own eyes to escape. Inversely, Martin tries to lean into it, to rise up the system to remake it from the inside until he can't square the sacrifices anymore.

Helen and Mike Crew both go from exploited to exploiter and gleefully turns on those who were once in their shoes, while Oliver tries to resist before giving up and accepting his role. Annabelle knows which side her bread is buttered on and makes the selfish choice while Jonah would sacrifice the world rather then giving up his status.

So, those are the choices. You find yourself -- in some way, in some manner- complicit in a system that hurts people and benefits you. You didn't ask for it, but that doesn't change the fact its true. Do you destroy yourself rather then ? Do you try to use this to help others? Do you just give up your ethical qualms and live large? There's no easy choices, and no unambiguously right ones. So what do you do?

[–]MagnusAmphibianThe Web 3 points4 points  (0 children)

this is real as fuck

[–]Jakob-MilThe Web 22 points23 points  (0 children)

There are some really good video essays on YouTube about TMA’s true story, but to say it simply I think the main themes are free will, losing your humanity, love, and obviously fear.

[–]Creative_Onion8363The Eye 39 points40 points  (1 child)

It's about how smug omniscient villains are sexy (sorry)

[–]the_horned_rabbitThe End 6 points7 points  (0 children)

And if they’re sexy but not smug, they’re probably Worms.

[–]WhiteRabbitHole1083The End 15 points16 points  (0 children)

“The real monsters were the friends we made along the way”

[–]UrbenmythNot!Them 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Imagine if spiders were real assholes.

[–]AnidemOris 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Choices and systems of oppression

[–]VivianFairchild 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I think it explores how people interface with horror (as fun, as a surprise, as uncanny, as disgusting, as inevitable, as something to be recorded and cataloged and remembered, as something to be resisted, as something to be embraced, as a job, as a means to an end, something to survive/transcend...).

Horror takes on a broad range of meanings in TMA, from the horrifying discovery of Jurgen Leitner's corpse to the decision to descend into the inescapable deep to rescue a friend. From having a cop hunt you and drag you out to the woods to kill you to the joy Simon Fairchild took in tormenting a handful of people in a ski lift. The show really interrogates the victim/perpetrator dichotomy, the role of a bystander (is Johnny Sims bearing witness to horror, or is he a dangerous idiot for standing aside and giving up his agency?)... And blends the line between real horror and extreme, hallucinogenic, nightmarish horror.

And a big part of that is: what makes us complicit? How do we resist in the face of overwhelming odds? Where the show touches on themes of police, state, and even interpersonal violence, surveillance, workplace abuse, etc., there's an uncomfortable dose of reality to the horror, and our protagonists only end up ushering in more horror. The systems are bigger than our characters, and intractable, and get worse before they get better, and nobody has the right or ability to make a decision for all of humanity... But they wrestle with it anyway, in all its complexity, even (always) with incomplete information.

Mostly, I think it asks us to sit with the complexity of irreversible horror as it devours characters we love and transforms the world into something unsettling, and asks us to interrogate the part of ourselves that takes a voyeuristic joy in watching it. It's challenging and heartbreaking, but also hard to look away, and it DOESN'T devour everything in the end.

Even when John tries to end the world to dispense with all the horror there's a hard, heartbreaking kind of love that overpowers the terror, even as it spreads it, to save the people we're close to.

[–]LastExitToBabylon 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's actually a RomCom.

[–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

The love was there. It didn’t change anything. Everything was fucked from the beginning and it was always going to end in tragedy, but the love was there and that still matters.

[–]CottaVGC 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ethics in supernatural journalism.

[–]bayushi_davidThe Vast 4 points5 points  (3 children)

I think it follows it's source material in many ways - the perils of the privileged following the pursuit of knowledge without considering the consequences. Jon is in so many ways Mr Wraxall from Count Magnus...

[–]cacophonycoffin 1 point2 points  (2 children)

what do you mean source material? i didn’t know tma was based on anything

[–]bayushi_davidThe Vast 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I mean it's based on lots of things, given virtually every episode in some way recalls or references a horror classic or trope. But the clue is in the name - Count Magnus is Jon's favourite MR James story and the key arc of James' stories and Magnus in particular, academic dudes stirring up horrors for themselves by digging around where they shouldn't, is basicly Jon's story and the story of the Magnus Archives.

[–]cacophonycoffin 0 points1 point  (0 children)

interesting. i’ll have to check it out sometimes

[–]Macduffle 13 points14 points  (1 child)

Its a love story between an archivist and his assistent<3

[–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I was coming here to say the same thing haha

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I think it's about the eternal human fascination with the dark and the morbid. We as listeners share the same traits as Jon in a way, we know this is going to end in tears but we keep listening anyway because we have to know more, have to know what's coming next. It's about the fight being worth it even if you ultimately fail, how yes, there are all these brutal terrible things in the world and we frequently do revert back to the same behaviours over and over but not always. It's possible to break out, like Melanie did. And there are slivers of love and joy even in the worst places. I disagree with the assessment that fighting the fears is futile, it isn't. Plenty of people have proved that. And also that very often situations aren't a case of deserving it or "earning" your fate. Sometimes you do and sometimes you just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm also very intrigued at what draws people to the fears. Because for each of them despite the fear there is also something alluring. Which is exactly what the Anglerfish episode demonstrates so well. And it may not be something everyone understands but I guess I'm intrigued by the concept of people being able to find something compelling and worthwhile even in things that are disgusting to most other people, like the Web or the Corruption.

[–]Sea_Employ_4366The Desolation 2 points3 points  (0 children)

an exploration of fear, the ways it still influences our modern world, whether the things we deem as worth living for have any true meaning in vast of an uncaring universe, and whether it's ever possible to justify an existence based on exploiting others.

[–]leafshakerThe Eye 2 points3 points  (0 children)

OK another take:

We should think about how we are guided by our fears, and that we should instead be led by love and community rather than chased by our fears. I think its also profound how misunderstood and ambiguous the fears are. In our own lives we also have a very hard time identifying the actual roots of our anxieties.

The categorization of the fears was useful, but also misleading. It's hard to tell which fear is in play in any given episode, because it's usually multiple, and some of the fears actively conceal themselves. People in horror are usually doomed once they give in to fear, that's when they blindly run into danger just to get away.

Similarly, it's really hard to self-diagnose accurately, which is why therapy is so important. Simply knowing more can make it worse, obsessive.

We often seek shelter in some other unhealthy extreme; ie, become an Avatar of another fear. Hurt people hurt people.

Fear is the mind killer.

[–]DoglysiumThe Lonely 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The philosophical dissection of fears and how they are both well feared but how they are used in society. I would argue that most of the fears themselves are commentary on the horrors of society as the more complex and nuanced societies get the more things there are to fear and the more nuanced the fears become.

I would argue the Eye is a big part of this metaphor as it often appeals to curiosity and the horror of watching and knowing something. The truth of the matter. Gertrude explains how the Eye also embodies the idea of curiosity even if what you find out might hurt you and we can see that perfectly with characters like Jon, Timothy and Melanie. Characters so desperate to know what was happening they stuck around and ended up acting as the key to the apocalypse, dying, or mutilating themselves.

But there’s also themes of society. As technology becomes more and more advanced and the knowledge of humanity grows so do the horrors. More ways to be surveillance and have data gathered, more ways to hurt others, more ways to control others, more ways to slaughter and consume.

Despite all this the message is vaguely hopeful. When the Change happened there seemed to be no way to make things better. Everything was a hellish cesspool of misery and we were told this by Jon who has access to an inconceivable amount of knowledge. Despite this there was an answer. It want pretty or perfect but despite being told and “knowing” that this is just the way the world is there was an answer and they didn’t succumb to their fear and sorrow and give up. They managed to make the world better even if the answer to doing so isn’t pretty and sort of moved it to someone else to solve. However, they didn’t even know that was an option originally.

It’s also about how messy the world is. At the end of the day most of what we see in the world is filtered and things like the distinction between the Entities or nature/artifice or the ocean/land or all the categories of animals are all stuff we try to put into boxes that don’t always fit perfectly. And a lot more things are less black and white and more like a spectrum than we care to admit.

There’s also a lot more stuff about privilege and oppression with the police, Peter Lukas’s Silence ritual and Jon’s comment about his guilt from having basically benefited from the Powers winning and somewhat enjoying knowing all that stuff. Although, he does also express excitement at the prospect of learning new things so maybe curiosity like that can prove both a danger and a boon. Fear and hopelessness is one of the greatest tools of oppression. Being watched, being controlled, being trapped and imprisoned, being hunted down, being hurt, so on and so forth.

[–]Aquamarine_ze_dragonThe Hunt 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I personally think most of these other people are correct. As jon said, we try to fit things into boxes, even though it's a stupid idea. And as Jane Prentice said "You can see it and log it and note it’s every detail but you can never understand it."

[–]leafshakerThe Eye 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Its about lots of things and open to interpretation. I believe I heard Alex and Jonny say they tried to avoid making it a direct allegory. Except for Lord of the Rings, I think they did say it's basically the same.

That said, it's a good metaphor for navigating capitalism and any other exploitative structures. The cast is literally working for an evil power, but they can't quite decide if it's better to leave or stay and try to wield that power for good. It's really hard to grapple with the fact that we are all complicit in child slavery and climate change, etc. Wrestling with our own responsibility can blind us to the fact that we are also victims and products of these systems.

Sometimes it feels like we can do better by knowing more, by paying witness, but this can worsen our guilt or make us numb, or turn into disaster porn. Once we decide to act we often find we can make things worse.

I think that central thesis could be that we make choices that impact our responsibility, but we are also in such a bind that we don't have many good choices, and those choices are narrowed by manipulative powers and our own ignorance.

[–]solarflareg 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The friends we made (and lost) along the way

[–]EmergencyLeading8137 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It’s about Jonathan Simms being a bullheaded fool who tries to get everyone else to make hard decisions for him. He succeeds in this goal at every turn.

[–]Ok-Raspberry1601 1 point2 points  (0 children)

gay people.

no but in all seriousness, from my own perspective of all the episodes i think it’s about the conglomeration of the fear of people in the world, which is encapsulated on each entity, and the avatars are like the mesiahs of the entities, which help ease the fear into humans and so they give “food” to their entities. that’s the basics, but avatars are people so they do people shit like make cults (so many cults, cmon desolation and dark stop it) or institutes (wink wink) so like, humans be humans even when they become monsters.

other than that (and spoilers for s5) whatever annabelle cane was on about other universes kinda like wrecked my whole understanding of the series, since now i’m formulating au scenarios and i’m guessing TMP will answer some questions…

still basically it’s about things that were scared of, but not super explicit. like the web can be either fear of spiders or literally being out of control from your own life, just like the eye can be the fear to be judged or to be literally watched all the time. the slaughter can be fear of violence or more complexly the fear of being violent against others and the vast can be the fear of heights, simply, or the vast expanding and never ending universe that makes us insignificant… so it’s very complex and weird and just whatever you thought of when listening that’s probably right

[–]thisuserlikeswaffles 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Whatever do you mean it’s clearly a workplace comedy

[–]Minimum_Raisin_865 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Work. You have the statement givers who all have their unique relationships to their jobs/hobbies, which lead them to contact with the fears. You have the Magnus Institute, which is the stronghold of the Eye operating as a workplace. You have the Magnus Crew, and their variable failures (and successes!) in surviving a toxic workplace. You have the other avatars, who have minimized their own work while traumatizing their victims for their own benefit. Even the core relationship, Jonmartin, spend a lot of time ruminating on how much effort they need to stay together.

[–]Fuzzy_Ad9686The Vast 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The friends we lost along the way.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m late to the party, but I think it’s an exploration of fear and what it means to be scared. I think that’s essentially the core, but of course, there are other parallels here like the others have pointed out, such as the themes of oppression from impossibly high powers, addiction, and the nature of free will. As someone else put it, nicely “it’s a philosophical dissection of fear.” The other themes were woven into the story, but are not its essence I think.

[–]BanaanisadeThe Stranger 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Life sucks and then you die but at least inbetween there you might make partners with a guy who will always be there to bring you some tea, whether you want it or not.

[–]the_ceasless_watcherThe Eye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Supplimentals

[–]Spacellama117The Vast 0 points1 point  (0 children)

workplace romance?

[–]SimpvanusThe Dark 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The early seasons especially are Kafkaesque to a tee. From Merriam-Webster: "surreal fiction vividly [expressing] the anxiety, alienation, and powerlessness of the individual... ...nightmarish settings in which characters are crushed by nonsensical, blind authority... ...bizarre and impersonal administrative situations where the individual feels powerless to understand or control what is happening." The concept of a job that will make you physically ill if you don't come in to work. A human meat processing plant where the only thing scarier than being put into a grinder is being told that your meat isn't high enough quality to use. Finding out that there was, for the people who came before you, a base of knowledge and set of connections that you are now barred from Just Because. I think this does also include the revelation that the people with power and authority also don't know what the hell they're doing most of the time.

One of the themes that really stuck out to me was the idea that no one has a really inherent moral quality. It's choices all the way down. "Good" people can hurt people. "Bad" people can make good choices. No one is immune from evil because they "are good", and, with maybe one or two exceptions in the show, no one "is evil" because of some immutable trait. It's both a way of showing empathy to people in bad situations who do bad things as a result, and a sort of kick in the nads to the sanctimony of "being a good person" like it's something you were born with and others weren't.

I also thought that the concept of building a community was used in some interesting ways. Most of the communities in the show - the Section 31 cops, the cults, even murder club - are in service of a higher belief. It's called out repeatedly that that's not enough for the Archive crew, who require personal connections to come together, and who fall apart in spectacular style when they don't have them. We also see a contrast between what relationships look like with time and effort, and without them. In the statements, connections to people are often what saves you; in the frame story, connections to institutions usually gets you killed. As a different podcast would say, "Other people are all there is." ;)

[–]i-d-even-k- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

love story lol

[–]Ok-Particular-3796 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Free will & what meaning it & "choice" really have when the consequences of our choices can never be fully known in the moment.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's actually a complex tale about how bad situations can lead to us making appallingly bad romantic partnerships. Inspired by the movie Speed.

[–]edogfu 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you do your job too well, the world will end.

[–]FaithlessnessOdd1071 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In-n-Out

[–]RhyelmArchivist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Old capitalist men are evil

[–]Sunny_Sides_up1847The Spiral 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Office comedy and men whimpering

[–]ell-if-i-knowThe Eye 0 points1 point  (0 children)

the main themes i see in the podcast are humanity (and lack thereof) and what makes you human, and questions around free will